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“A good measure of how we’re doing…is what I call the Twenty Year Rule. If someone was born in our church and grew up singing our songs over the course of twenty years, how well would they know God? Would these songs give them a biblical and comprehensive view of God, or would they be exposed only to certain aspects of his nature and works? Would they learn that God is holy, wise, omnipotent, and sovereign? Would they know God as Creator and Sustainer? Would they understand the glory and centrality of the Gospel? Or would they think worship is about music, and not much more?” -Bob Kauflin, Worship Matters
Eph 5:18-19 gives credence to Kauflin's measure of success.
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
"If, as the quote suggests, worship leaders are expected to lead people into this depth, then there is something seriously wrong with your preaching/teaching ministries...Without good teaching, churches languish."
Your creating a false dichotomy... You're wrongly suggesting that a worship ministry that teaches negates or supersedes the preaching ministry. Neither I nor the quote have stated or suggested such a view. Much to the contrary both comments actually provide for a worship ministry which compliments and supports the preaching ministry.
To successfully support the preaching ministry the worship ministry needs to teach. Teaching in worhsip is the thrust of Eph 5:18-19. Furthermore John 4 shows us that worship is to be done in spirit and truth... Truth is suppose to be a key aspect to our worship which implies that there is an informative aspect to worship. This is extremely apparent in the Psalms... The Psalms often informed Israel of the precepts of God. Finally, Roman 12:1-2 ties the mind in with worship obviously implying that worship is a cognitive process which requires the renewing of the mind... Which once again implies that worship teaches.
I don't think many, if any churches, are in danger of dying because worship ministries teach too much... If anything I think its the other way around. There are two many ministries that keep to the shallows of the shore line instead of casting their sails to the wind and heading for the depths of the ocean.
They are satisfied drinking mild when they should be eating meat. And there's nothing that I am aware of in scripture to suggested that our worship times should be be mild that leads to meat... When Paul introduced those terms to our church vocabulary he was not suggesting that we maintain a diet of both milk and meat... He's point was that we, like babies, need to move on from one to the other. Even if we look at the examples of Biblical worship, namely the Psalms, we are talking in terms of meat not milk.
I know you haven't, but I'm saying that it's a necessary result. I'm saying that we are not here to lead people into the deep wells of the Spirit and the Word, only a solid teaching/preaching ministry can actually do that. When we sing, that's not what's happening. If we think that's our job, we've gone too far with our role.
True, churches aren't dying because the worship ministries teach too much - worship ministries can't and shouldn't teach. Churches are dying because they lack solid teaching ministries, placing their priorities instead on their worship ministry. I see it day in and day out.
As for Psalms, there were didactic Psalms - teacing Psalms. But for the most part, they were experiential and phenomenological. As with one of my favorite singers, Mark Knopfler, ballads can bring out messages that are new and intriguing. But until I look them up and findh out the history and subject he's singing about, I've not learned anything. After I do the learning, the song means more to me. So if this is the concept you have in mind, I don't completely disagree. But the statement seems to imply that the worship leader can feed the flock. That's not really possible.
We might be into semantics here, so I'm not going to get over the top about it.
"Worship ministries can't and shouldn't teach."
What are you basing this on? I think I made a pretty strong argument it seems like you ignored it...
Honestly man, it just kind of seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Many of your post come across as being a little belligerent. Maybe this is why your expressing frustration with people censuring their posts... Maybe they just feel like your attacking them. I'm all for a good argument and I'm fairly confident that I can hold my own. Honestly, I think I have well out argued you in this post. But at the same time I would much rather work things out over productive discussion instead of having to defended myself from an unwarranted and kind of aggressive reaction to my post.
But your first response to me was, "no, you're wrong..."...? And do you really want to drag other posts into this? Try not to read emotion into what I'm saying, I've not done anything to insult you or call you names. I'm just seeing a point and trying to dialogue with you.
First, I didn't see how the passages you used supported your point, could you elaborate? I would agree that worship supports the teaching ministry, and I stated that in my first response. But for me, musical worship stops there and teaching takes over. I think you need much stronger support to take worship beyond the point that I was trying to establish.
It's a personal button for me that you have pushed. I see many people trying to elevate worship and musical worship as the pinnacle and most important thing a church does. We have worship leaders now at the forefront and pastors and teachers are taking a back seat. And yet, there isn't a spiritual gift of "worship leader". It seems wrong to me.
I think you're taking another approach and I appreciate that. I can see that you want worship leaders to take it more seriously and that's good. But there is the other end of the spectrum that needs to be watched. That's my concern.
Here is how worship ministry can't teach: you sing a hymn that is 3 minutes long. It contains a lot of rich and thick references and imagery. You don't have time to learn everything that's in it - it's like trying to sip water from a fire hydrant. But if you understand all it's references and have spent time under your pastor learning about the truths in that hymn, then you appreciate it. Teaching - that had to happen before the hymn was of any use to you. But now, every time you sing it, you are reminded of the truths that you were taught and it is reinforced. Is this possibly what you're trying to say anyhow?
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