Monitor

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Blue on November 12, 2008 at 3:43am

Our sound guy cannot tollerate "ambiant" monitors, so we got an Aviom system for our church.
Personally, I have not yet found "in-ear" monitors I care for, and the big "studio headphones" fall off my head and isolate me more than I like from the room...So I bought a $10 pair of foam ear phones than hang over the ear and don't isolate me from the room as much.

Permalink Reply by Michael Talbott on November 18, 2008 at 7:53am

Stage monitor speakers really make it difficult to get clean sound from the mains to the congregation so I support the idea of in-ear monitors. In-ear monitors are also better for protecting your hearing since you have complete control of the levels and the in-ear headsets provide great isolation.

You've hit on the real problem....what earphones/earsets, work best for you, fit you and are comfortable...

Personally, I use Ultimate Ears dual driver earphones and like them better than anythong else I've used, but they are not cheap. I think Shure's are over-rated. M-Audio "re-brands" the Ultimate Ear's as their own brand.

In-ear monitors also isolate you from what's going on around you, so if you don't have an ambient congregational mic pumped into the monitor mix, you won't hear much but the band. Another option that I use when I don't fell like sticking monitors in my ears are open back headphone like some of the low to mid-priced Sennheisers. They're like $50 to $60 and fit snug enough I've never felt like I was going to loose them. In concert, where we're not using stage monitors, I always use in-ears, because I'm pretty much up front and feel a little "dorky" wearing headphones while connecting with the crowd.

Permalink Reply by Mark Buck on November 25, 2008 at 2:43am

If I could have the sound situation that I wanted, I would ask a consultant (i,e. Sweetwater or the loke) to come in and "outfit" us wth waht our room calls for. I would make sure that this included an in ear monitor system. I love the idea of having my own monitor mix and having more space on stage to boot. That would be my dream situation. Alas, at this point it's only a dream.

Permalink Reply by Kevin Vetters on March 25, 2010 at 4:49pm

I would love to go with in-ear personal monitors, but they are just too cost prohibitive for many smaller groups. We just bought four Carvin 12 inch wedge monitors for under $900 US. Couldn't spend that little and get any kind of decent personal monitor system.

Permalink Reply by Ken Granger on March 26, 2010 at 2:05pm

In-ears. While I do miss actually feeling the low-end (especially when I hit my low 'B' on the fifth string!), our stage layout is such that I'm standing pretty much center stage right under the flying Bose sub so I get enough from that. In-ears, and head-phones for that matter, took some getting used to since I also sing but for being able to mix just what I want to hear, and to control the volume level, they can't be beat.

No wedges on stage means the sound man has complete control of the what the congregation hears, which is as it should be.

Permalink Reply by Wulf Forrester-Barker on October 21, 2010 at 5:23pm

I've yet to play with in-ear monitors so can't speak with experience of both systems. However, I think there is something to be said for the old-style way of monitors and, for instruments like bass, on-stage amps. The caveat is that each person has to keep their sound source quiet enough so everyone else can hear what they need to.

Wulf

Permalink Reply by Bull on November 1, 2010 at 2:31pm

We started using in-ear monitors (IEMs) a year ago after our director saw them at a worship trade show. She liked the idea of cutting down the noise on stage. We went to IEMs and wrapped the drums in plexiglass.

The truth is, what vocalists (i.e. non-instrument players) really want is a band to be like a track that they just turn on and hear through the speakers and can totally control. IEMs are the closest things you can get to that. So here's my impression from a bass player's perspective. I'm making the assumption you'll have no floor monitor at all, including amps. After all, that's the whole point of an IEM, right?

Goods:

- It definitely decreases the amount of sound on stage with no amps/monitors. Helpful if you are fighing a couple guitar players with effects for breathing room with the drums, especially in a smaller room. Our sanctuary is carpeted, upholstered seats, vaulted wood ceiling with beams every 20 feet or so, and about 50x100 feet in dimension.

- Ear buds block ambient noise, so if you have a hard time focusing on the music you're making, this could help.

- You can save money by not having to buy a bass cabinet. (see more below)

Bads (things to deal with):

- Unless you have a REALLY good sound tech who is there every time for rehearsal and performance, it's almost impossible to get a good monitor mix. Everybody in the band wants something different. I play by ear, so I want my bass signal boosted, drums next, and everybody else in the background. Drummer wants enough of bass to be sync'd up, with just a bit of guitar and vocals to stay on top of where the music is going. Guitar/Vocalists want a balanced mix of everything with them on top. And so on. It's hard to find, and when you work somebody new into the group you have to re-set everything.

- Worse, some guys don't know the difference between the monitor mix and the house mix, and start messing with the setup after worship starts. UGH!

- Lord help you (literally) if some kid messes with your mixing board on Wednesday Youth Night.

- If you have a drummer with heavy hands and feet, and don't put him in the next room and mike the drums to the board, nothing will cut that noise back, even plexiglass/insulated panels. Worse: His earbuds are like earplugs which cut ambient drum noise, so he feels he must play louder to compensate. Think of how your friend answers a question when they're wearing headphones. Takes a while for them to adjust, if they ever do.

- You don't know it until you try it, but everybody plays as much by feel as by hearing. IEMs cut feel totally away. Can be helped a little with things like a KickAss for the drummer's throne. And you get sorta used to it eventually. But it's like playing in a fishbowl. Really, really sterile. I have a hard time getting "lost in worship" with these things.

- Too bad you spent $1,000 on that great head and 4x10. You are now stuck with your bass's sound coming through whatever gear your church bought. Trust me - you will not like the sound your bass makes through a PA system built to handle your pastor's voice, but not a low E or B string. If you're blessed to have good sound guys, work with them to make sure everything in your signal path - guitar, amp head, mixing board EQ, sound system EQ, and speakers - are set up to sweeten your base tone. Or go in with a friend on the weekend and have them play your bass while you tweek it. And then tape everything down. If you have any influence over your music budget, get them to consider adding bass or sub-bass speakers on the floor someplace (corner is ok), and consider a SansAmp or something besides a direct box to get your signal a little hotter before sending it to the board.

- Add the wireless IEM's own signal path to the one I mentioned above, and you'll quickly realize why there's a fraction of a delay between when you pluck a string and hear it in your ear. It's not much, but it's definitely different than playing directly through your amp/cab. Again, takes some getting used to.

- Unless you mic the congregation (strongly recommend you do), you lose that aural connection with everybody worshiping. At times I just pull out one earplug so I can hear them singing (which @Michael Talbott mentions, can do damage to your hearing). Agree with @Michael Blue - try different headphones or earbuds if the stock buds that come with the monitors aren't doing it for you.

- They're expensive, and can be temperamental. From time to time we get really annoying static or interference. Cell phones in the pocket of guys in the booth are usually the culprit. 30 feet line of site from the transmitter to your receiver is about max. We went the rechargable battery route to save $ and there's nothing like a battery dying on you mid-song. If your church won't buy them, buy a couple of your own 9v's and keep them in your bag.

We had a multi-church worship event the other night with some guest musicians. We took some liberties and dropped the plexi shield and went with just amps on stage (no monitors), set on low and miked through the PA to get the blend to the back of the room. If I had my preference, we'd play that way every Sunday a.m., and we would have saved a ton of $$.

Hope that helps somebody.

Blessings,
db

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on November 3, 2010 at 10:33am

In ears with Aviom. Even though I can't afford nice buds for my ears, I can tightly control my mix and hear a lot of detail in how I'm articulating my instrument (keys, bass). Now, have cheap buds, so I don't get the full tone, but I got used to it and have totally found that I can play better with them on.

Permalink Reply by Toni on November 3, 2010 at 4:03pm

Like Wulf, I've yet to play with in ears, but I cannot believe they can ever be a substitute for all that carefully selected and matched gear.

I'd also suggest that part of having 'live musicians' is all about having a variable mix FOH - otherwise we could just simply play backing tracks off CDs, making use of the very best session musicians and working in the safety of knowing that the performance would be consistently good every time.

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on November 4, 2010 at 6:28am

Some churches are smartening up and using ISO boxes, which have been in use for years in the professional commercial / secular scene. Many pro musicians have added in ears and use them well. So, just because you go in / ear doesn't mean you have to give up your gear. It just means that you have to get used to using it remotely (easy to do today).

One major issue is that all that gear on stage, as great as it may be, when turned up to usable volumes, quickly overwhelms FOH systems, especially in churches that keep volumes artificially low (this is most of the churches out there). In a small venue, where the FOH has to be kept at 90dba or lower, stage amps are always a bad idea.

Permalink Reply by Toni on November 4, 2010 at 11:24am

Good points Cory. Over the years I've carefully developed a rig that still sounds full at a church-tolerant volume, however I'd suggest that slightly overwhelming an often anaemic FOH (close to the front) isn't necessarily a bad thing as it allows people choose a range of different places to stand according to taste. But sure, it won't please someone who wants control of every aspect of volume and tone, both FOH and on stage, that seems to be the case in some situations. Just like it won't please guitar and bass players who know that an ISO cabinet still won't sound the same as the speaker they carefully selected to match their gear (and is another big expense - I looked into an iso cab a year or so back).

I think Don's post probably does the subject most justice, in a balanced way.

Compromise is, of course, the answer as always. Deciding what's the greatest good and identifying how to achieve that and then working out what is needed to get close to it is the interesting part. It's very difficult to get right without either emotional blackmail or digging trenches around what we 'know' to be right and good. Personally I think the sound side of things should serve the band and worship leader, rather than t'other way round, but that's another thread.

Permalink Reply by Bull on November 6, 2010 at 4:30pm

will try the ISO idea - how do you do that w/a bass amp (frequency wavelength is 10-20 feet long)? and how do you switch tones between songs (chorus on/off, change EQ for pop vs worship sound) if your gear is in another room or in a box? do they make a remote head switch for that?

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