Bassist vs. Soundman!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Diana Jurss on December 10, 2009 at 2:16pm

I agree with you Bill. I think the bass player, more than any other member of the group,
is there to help make everybody else sound better. The average listener won't notice if
the bass playing is really good, but they sure notice when it isn't!
The church service our team plays for is held in the church gym, so the acoustics are not
very good (hardwood floors with huge ceiling etc.). I have a Fender Bassman 250 amp and
line-out to the system but that only goes to the main speakers. I am not in the monitor mix
at all. Basically just the vocals and keyboard is in the monitors, everybody else can be
heard on stage thru their own amps. Our drummer is awesome and she can be heard everywhere!

Permalink Reply by Kevin Vetters on March 25, 2010 at 4:16pm

If I get started I won't stop. I have come across this is every church I've ever been in. And I know they don't do it just to me. I watched some great bassist do what looks like some really cool stuff up the neck, but you could hear a dang thing. It's as if all church sound guys went to the same camp. They seem to think that the bass is all about the "rumble". But then you never hear the notes. There are times that the "rumble" is what your after, but not always. I keep telling my sound guy to listen to some Rush songs. Listen to the bass on them. It's not all about the "boom". And don't tell me to turn down when I can't hear myself in the mains.

AS far as running through the only through the board, it depends on if I trust the sound guy to present what I'm playing.

Permalink Reply by Kevin Vetters on March 25, 2010 at 4:46pm

And sound guys need to remember that they work for the band, not the other way around. And having run sound myself I can say this. Heck, there have been times that I've had to plug right into the board, run sound and play bass from the sound-booth cuz our sound guy didn't show.

Permalink Reply by Tom Talley on March 28, 2010 at 11:31am

I feel that Bass and Drums are the foundation of energy in any song that has a grove. However, as a bass player and worship leader I have pushed for that and with the new digital wireless unit from Line 6 I get a clean "wired" sound that allows me to walk out in front and hear what the mains sound like. I am always surprised at how much more bass comes through than what I am able to hear through monitors. We run a house mix through the monitors so we can hear exactly what the house mix is then if you need to add an extra amount of your own instrument or vocal you can with the Avion. I have a bass amp on stage but depending on the size of your church and the amient noise around you (i.e. the drummer) you rist having the stage amp too loud causing the sound person to adjust the mains lower on your bass channel so I just use is in moderation or not at all.

Permalink Reply by Kevin Vetters on March 30, 2010 at 11:33pm

I have, many times been told that the bass is "driving the sound" only to step out front and not hear any bass at all except the rumble that bounces around the room. The bass ends up just being a big muddy mess, and there is no clarity of the notes. I have also played for a worship team that only had a few "hotspot"-style monitors, and while standing directly under the mains (flying) I was basically playing blind, or deaf. I could not hear anything from my instrument at all since they wanted no amps on stage.

Permalink Reply by Carl W. Carlson on August 12, 2010 at 4:37pm

Wow! "Felt but not heard?!?!?!"
Only if your in your car with a 1200w subwoofer cruisin' down the Blvd.!!!! (Gosh I hate that!)

Certainly we must consider the "role" of bass. A fairly basic and generally held practice (especially in P&W) is that the bass is the link between the beat and the melody. You might argue that beat can only be felt (i would certainly disagree - it also has tone and timbre) but melody is certainly "heard." How then can one link to a tonal pattern with only a shockwave of air? Nonsense! If that was all that was required, a bass would have only one string and that on string would be muted and attached to a 1000w amp connected to 4x18 cabinent! (Although I must admit I do this sometimes during a post-bridge chorus when only vocals and drums are going. It adds to the kick drum feel. Gotta be tight with the drummer though!)

In many P&W songs (as well as other genres), you'll note that the guitarist simply plays the chord change. So how does the listener anticipate the change of chord or movement? Much of the time it is from the bass transitioning from one chord to the next. Certainly this requires tone or "hearing."

The whole idea of rumble is merely an effect. Kinda like your lighting. Used correctly, it could compliment a song, but it should not be the "main point."

Kevin is right ... listen to some recorded music. Another good example is Joe Jackson's "Look Sharp" album ... outstanding bass playing - actually more of a lead instrument thingy. The only time I can think of that "rumble" is the norm is in the metal scene.

To help prevent that "mudiness" or lack of clarity, convince the other musicians to try to stay out of each others frequency. You'll be amazed how different the "whole" sound will be if the guitar stays off the six-string open E chord while you are laying down the lows!!!!

Running sound is not easy, and my hat's off to all those "volunteer-audio-techs" out there! Keep learning and talk with the musicians and especially the worship leader. Remember, it's called a worship "TEAM" ...

Carl
aka Child of God

Permalink Reply by Paul Carlson on April 6, 2011 at 1:36pm

All relevent points Carl!  I would like to add that if Bass Guitar is only about the "shockwave" then we can throw out all the great Motown Hits basslines that James Jamerson chopped!  I am always challenged to play my role as the Bass Player, and with that, I feel obligated to transition from chord to chord as melodically as possible when there is "room" to do so and is appropriate!  (Make those guitar guys really miss you when you aren't there!) I love the analogy about "one string" bass playing.  If that's how anybody looks at themselves as the bass dude, they should definitely find a job as a drummer that only uses a mic'd-up kick-drum!

 

Having a Jesus filled day for sure! 

Permalink Reply by Carl W. Carlson on August 12, 2010 at 4:48pm

Oh - by the way, everyone should be in the board when possible. Whether or not the audio tech puts your channel into the mix is another thing, but at least the option is there!

Carl
aka Child of God

Permalink Reply by Christopher Reyes on September 4, 2010 at 4:34am

Well, we don't have a "sound man" as part of our worship team at this point. Because we play in a very transitory environment (Rescue Mission), its difficult to find people who can play instruments and play with us long enough to fit in. Our current worship leader sets the sound on the board one way and we have to adjust ourselves to fit for each song. I as a bass player like to be heard, but when it comes time for a strong beat-felt sound, I'm blending in with the drums and rhythm guitarist (when we have one). When we're playing an awe-fullied, slower song when there is not a lot going on with everbody in the band (if we can get the drummer to sit on one hand for just a few minutes), the I can be heard with simple, low-mid and high-mid melodic fills. I don't do this a whole lot because when I do, I want it to have value. Maybe not a bad idea to encourage your soundman to implement this idea when practicing to see how this may work.

Permalink Reply by Wulf Forrester-Barker on October 4, 2010 at 12:52pm

How can it be "felt but not heard" unless (a) everyone in the room is sitting on a rumble seat or (b) the overall volume is massively loud?

I have played just through the system but prefer to have a local amp so that I can be sure I have enough bass for me and the rest of the band to work with. I aim towards the low end of what I might prefer so that I don't overpower the signal from the main system (it is always better if the sound man asks you to turn up!) and it means bass doesn't need to clutter the monitors.

Wulf

Permalink Reply by Kevin Vetters on October 4, 2010 at 1:54pm

Easy, that means that the bass sound is heard, but there is no definition in the notes. All you hear is rumble, but not the individual note, or riff.

The sound guy I have to work with hears the rumble in the monitor, but no matter how hard I try to convince him, he never puts me in the mains enough to not make it just mud. As soon as I run up the neck, or play my fretless, I disappear. He seems to think that the bass is all about the rumble and not the notes.

And I have yet to have a sound guy tell me to "turn it up". More often then not, when I have played with an amp, I end up having it to low that I can barely hear it, let alone anyone else.

It's even worse when we play without a drummer (which happens a lot) because I am, then, the one providing the main rhythm and movement. And because our sound guy can't be bothered to listen to us, I have trouble hearing myself, and the same goes for the rest of the band. It just becomes a huge mess. And when we try to get his attention, he's sitting back thee with the headphones on, ignoring us.

Permalink Reply by Wulf Forrester-Barker on October 4, 2010 at 2:25pm

Ah! Do you mean the "pillow full of rocks" sound? You can *hear* it but it is like being hit with a pillow full of rocks rather than anything tuneful.

If you have an amp on stage, try rolling off the low end - it sounds like there is already too much of that around - and going for a sound that would be ugly on its own but might just work in the mix. It also depends on who else is playing in the band (it doesn't sound like you are overwhelmed with musicians though).

Is there another bassist at your church? If so, it might even be worth volunteering to run the sound board once in a while. There is no better way to bridge the "us and them" divide than to belong to both camps. I run the sound at church about once every two months; I prefer to play but it keeps my hand in and, with several volunteers, avoids the main sound guy being stuck on it every week (and the church being stuck if he isn't around for a service).

Wulf

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