Worship without Music

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by JORN on July 17, 2010 at 2:34am

Stevo, I have to wonder if the operative word is not "for" but "with". I think if you leave out the idea of the Holy Spirit then maybe you can say worship is for God, but I think if the Holy Spirit is involved then I think worship is "with" God not, for God or to God. I see it as more communal.

Permalink Reply by JORN on July 17, 2010 at 2:43am

Stevo, I'm with you on that! I'm looking forward to heaven! I'm hopin' there's some kick-butt music up there!!!

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Permalink Reply by Lorraine Doswell on July 17, 2010 at 9:51am

Stevo, I see my own worship as an offering for and to God. I consciously tell Him beforehand that this is for Him, and after my praise I always say 'for you Lord', more so at the times I worship at home alone with the Lord. Now, I am not saying that He needs it, I really cannot argue on that point.

Say you have a lovely friend and you desire to give them a gift, they may not need it, but it's one way of showing our love or appreciation of them. I see God as my bestest friend and desire my worship to be my gift to Him. Now, biblical or not biblical, can you really tell me that that is wrong?

I know worship is a tool for evangelising, reaching out etc. but that's for another discussion.........

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on July 22, 2010 at 6:10pm

I was just checking, sounds solid to me. God doesn't need our worship and doesn't need cheering up - but there is an aspect where He's pleased with our offerings and enjoys our music. (Yes, I think He enjoys music by itself as well as when we sing.)

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on July 22, 2010 at 9:25am

I think there is a huge difference between eating your "green beans because they are good for you" and worshiping God only because I get something in return.

We aren't to approach God with selfish intentions. Frankly, implying that worshiping God is good for us kind of insults those who suffer to worship God.

If you worship God for your own benefit, then you aren't worshiping God. You are worshiping yourself - you are your own idol.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on July 22, 2010 at 7:31pm

Yea, I know that it sounds counter to what we're used to, but reward is a huge part of New Testament teaching. Think of it in two different ways - present benefit vs. future benefit. But also, think of the opposite - doing what's bad for you. It's not quite like beans, but then it is like beans. There is a built in hunger for God because He is what we need, just like we need food.

Those who suffer because of their faith absolutely do it because it's good for them - in the future. Look at Jesus' example in Heb 12:2 - "who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Even Jesus was looking ahead to a reward and was willing to endure the suffering for that immeasurable reward - a future benefit. I'm pretty sure that neither Jesus nor the martyrs would have suffered if they knew there was no reward for it. Hebrews says that's the reason for enduring it!

So what God demands from us is good for us in the long run although it might not be pleasant now. Jesus even stated it this way in Luke 18:28ff - "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life." I think He wanted us to assure us that there is benefit to following Him - now and in the future. Just one small thing, like a cup of water to a fellow pilgrim, will result in great reward.

So it's a paradox, we do what God demands now and worship Him now because we know it's the best thing for us, especially in the future with respect to future rewards. That means emptying ourselves and sacrificing our own lives for His cause so that we will reap eternal rewards. "Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven." What treasures? Those rewards that come as a result of obeying Him now.

And look at the opposite thing in Ephesians 5:29 - "for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it". In other words, would you worship God if the end result were not only present suffering, but also eternal discomfort? That's not how we're made.

So this doesn't mean that we're selfish. The biblical definition of selfish isn't that we think of benefit to ourselves, it's about putting ourselves above others and especially about depriving others for our own gain. But doing things now for others will benefit me in the future - that is a biblical concept.

Of course some people don't subscribe to the concept of future rewards. But even such a view has to acknowledge Jesus' statement - "many times as much at this time...".

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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on July 23, 2010 at 9:03am

Holy Scripture makes it pretty clear that anybody who works with selfish ambition will not make it into heaven:

Gal 5:19: The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you come to worship God for your own benefit, you are acting selfishly.

There is a huge difference between doing what is right just so that you can take home your reward and doing what is right and getting a reward. It is true that Christians get a great reward for being what they are. However, for that to be our core motivation, as you seem to be suggesting, is backwards and promotes sinfulness not sinlessness.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on July 23, 2010 at 3:45pm

But how can you separate the reward from the motivation? And where in scripture is it discouraged? If anything, it is so pervasive in the NT, one has to see it as a core motivation!

First, Christians do not get a reward for being who they are, they get a reward for doing what God asks of them after they become believers.

Second, those "will not inherit" are not the same as those "will not enter". Inheritors are not the same as mere entrants. Inheritance is more than entrance, it is gaining ownership. Not everyone who enters will actually gain ownership of the kingdom.

But finally, the NIV translates this as selfish ambition, but it's easily misunderstood in our culture. The sense of ἐριθεία is like this: "is found in Aristotle where it denotes a self-seeking pursuit of political office by unfair means." (emphasis mine)

Here is a good article, see the second paragraph after the verses:

http://www.christianblog.com/blog/masterchief/selfish-ambition-and-...

So selfish ambition is seeking reward to yourself at any cost with no concern for right or wrong, even if it hurts others. That is different from being motivated to do acts of righteousness because we will be rewarded. The one has no place in God's kingdom, the other is encouraged throughout scripture.

I think you're confusing altruism with selflessness. The opposite of selfish ambition is not altruism.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on July 16, 2010 at 7:26pm

What you don't play - That was Roger Waters' philosophy of music in the early Pink Floyd days and it really paid off.

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Permalink Reply by Allan Midgley on July 15, 2010 at 9:50am

What Cory says makes sense,( Music isn't about what you play, it is about what you don't play. ) in that when you don't play something, when you normally do; it makes people sit up and notice - and hopefully , participate.

I get my team to understand what Psalms 150 means: - ALL FORMS of worship is required to worship GOD, that's music, dancing singing etc etc and even silence from the musicians too. To me ALL forms and types and individuals are welcome to worship the Lord, if that is in their heart to do.

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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on July 15, 2010 at 10:00am

I love your thought on PS 150.

You can also throw mowing the lawn, serving ice cream to your friends, and taking out the trash to your list.

I see discussions like this and I wonder: is the problem that we don't move? Or is that the symptom of the real problem: that we don't really understand what worship really is?

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Permalink Reply by Allan Midgley on July 15, 2010 at 10:09am

Yep , do whatever it takes to worship our great God. It may help the place to work better we we all got that in our heads........lol. Then come round to my house and mow the lawns too.....:) .

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