Singing or ministering???

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on December 7, 2010 at 12:06am

"You can say "never concern your self with what the congregation thinks" all you want, but its just not practical."

God isn't about practical. God is about taking risk, giving your absolute best, despite what the people think.

We aren't "popes of worship" but the more we curate worship around what makes people happy, the more we make worship about those people - which only leads to immature and idolatrous worship offerings. And while it is "just music" it is still our worship offering to God. Taint it with selfishness and there will be negative consequences.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on December 7, 2010 at 12:19am

So are you saying that if your congregation has some ideas about how they want worship sound, you don't care? Are you really that way? Would you force an issue even if the congregation splits over it?

"Those people"? "Idolatrous worship offerings"? What? Is it really so black and white as all that?

You're opinion of the congregation is somewhat puzzling. It's like every time someone mentions that a congregation has a preference, or disagrees with you, you brand them as idolatrous and immature.

If the local congregation doesn't get to be involved in the decision about how they choose to worship, who does? Is Cory autonomous? Exactly what are you saying here?

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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on December 7, 2010 at 2:33pm

I'm very sorry that you don't get it. Most worship leaders don't. So, the church is idolatrous.

Cater to what people want, you'll run into very dangerous waters. Fast. Why? Because people tend to take what they want before they'll go after what they need. What people need is to come to our corporate worship offering to give to God - not look for their own gain. Yet, church leaders teach that coming to worship for your own gain is OK. Even if we don't expressly say it, the Church practices otherwise.

Permalink Reply by Ian MacLaren on December 7, 2010 at 3:44pm

Hey guys, can you cool it a bit! I thought we were all on the same side!

I think you've both got points.

Just listening to the congregation and running things like a request show is unlikely to end well, which I guess is one of Cory's points.

Just following your own heart is also dangerous - we can all be deceived, which I guess Stevo is concerned about.

Setting up some division between what the worship team wants and what the rest of the church wants is unlikely to work out well.

Working with your worship team and pastoral leadership for the good of the whole church is biblical. What this looks like in practice will look different in your church to mine, styles differ, people differ, God doesn't.

Permalink Reply by Stevo on December 7, 2010 at 7:07pm

I've never gotten your idolatry thing - this is a recurring theme with you and we usually get polarized over it. You say the Church is idolatrous, but I need to remind you that you are a church member yourself. So you by inference...

I don't think you're talking from real world experience Cory, it all sounds very theoretical. The facts are that a congregation sets it's own tone and musical worship style - someone has to choose something, right? If you or I don't agree with those preferences and insist on our own way, we're not likely to be the worship leader there. Those are just the facts. It might be about idolatry, but it might not be either.


In practice, I find that most of my congregation is interested in worshiping God when they get together. Some like the hymns, others the modern stuff. We all sing both together without a grudge. Well, there is this one guy who thinks that guitars are of the devil, but his wife sings like a bird. Whatever.

For instance, a congregation insists on hymns only. Is that idolatrous? Or if a board of elders has a rule that excludes solos and breaks in songs, is that idolatrous?

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on December 7, 2010 at 9:28pm

"So you by inference..." This is "Guilty by association" talk, which is meaningless babble. It isn't a real argument, even though people try to use it.

"I don't think you're talking from real world experience Cory"
24 years of real world experience.

"The facts are that a congregation sets it's own tone and musical worship style".

It depends on your angle here. I have seen churches squash quality worship offerings for the tastes of the few. The problem isn't only hymns, or choruses, or music, or instrumental, or this kind of teaching, or that kind of teaching. It is the idea that those things somehow lead to a more authentic worship offering. They don't. They never do. If they do, they need to be removed because they are, absolutely, idols. Things don't make the worship offering. Hearts do. When God blesses a church with the ability to give a certain kind of worship offering, and that church doesn't because "it isn't our preference, God" then there is an idolatry problem.

Permalink Reply by Stevo on December 7, 2010 at 10:30pm

"I have seen churches squash quality worship offerings for the tastes of the few." - so have I and it is sad. But I can't do much about it if they are set on a certain thing. I would personally move on.

"It is the idea that those things somehow lead to a more authentic worship offering." - I'm not questioning the authenticity of a person's offering. I can't see through their skin and tell, and it's not up to you or me to decide. If I don't like what I see, I can move on. I'd rather move on than split up a congregation over something as trivial as a guitar solo. You've had 24 years of experience, you should already know how trivial some of these things are.

"This is "Guilty by association" talk" - no, it's actually implying that your statement was bordering on hypocritical. You should really be careful calling the church idolatrous when you are the church yourself. None of us can stand back and say that without pointing a finger at ourselves.

Look, I don't have a problem if a congregation asks for a certain style or prefers not to hear a certain instrument. It's really up to them whether you and I like it or not. If it gets too confining, I'll move on. But for now, I'm quite happy with the parameters we've set in our own congregation. People are really responding in a very worshipful way.

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on December 8, 2010 at 3:07pm

""I have seen churches squash quality worship offerings for the tastes of the few." - so have I and it is sad. But I can't do much about it if they are set on a certain thing. I would personally move on."

Is this what a real leader does? Move on? Or does a real leader try to stick with it and evoke change and growth? You can't evoke change and growth without pissing some people off. It can't be done. Perhaps this is why the church dies, the leaders in it move instead of take risks. In fact, I know many church leaders that believe that this is precisely why the church is dying off.

"I can move on. I'd rather move on than split up a congregation over something as trivial as a guitar solo. You've had 24 years of experience, you should already know how trivial some of these things are."

The guitar solo may be trivial. But the guitar solo isn't the point. The people crying for what they want instead of being happy with what God gave them. That is the point.

""This is "Guilty by association" talk" - no, it's actually implying that your statement was bordering on hypocritical. You should really be careful calling the church idolatrous when you are the church yourself. None of us can stand back and say that without pointing a finger at ourselves."

I'm careful. Just because I'm walking up to the line and maybe even crossing it doesn't mean that it isn't a line worth walking up to and crossing. This is what we ought to be doing. Being a Christian leader isn't about staying back in the safety and comfort zones. It means taking risks, up to and including our own lives, the lives of our spouses, the lives of our children, and the lives of our friends for the purpose of the Kingdom. EVEN IF I step on my own toes in the process.

Permalink Reply by Stevo on December 8, 2010 at 4:10pm

"Is this what a real leader does? Move on" - this is why I said, "if they are set on a certain thing". I think leaders should try to cause some change, but without strife. And to be sure, it's not uncommon to be completely blocked. At that point, you either accept it or move on.

"I know many church leaders that believe that this is precisely why the church is dying off." - is it dying off? How many leaders do you know that think this way? Have they written any articles that I can read? This is a good subject to explore!

"The guitar solo may be trivial. But the guitar solo isn't the point. The people crying for what they want instead of being happy with what God gave them. That is the point." - I thought the guitar solo was the point of this discussion - in fact, I'm sure it was. Your church experience sounds rather unpleasant. I'm imagining Israel complaining in the desert. If you're tired of it, you should move on, you will only make matters worse if you stay.

"Being a Christian leader isn't about staying back in the safety and comfort zones. It means taking risks, up to and including our own lives, the lives of our spouses, the lives of our children, and the lives of our friends for the purpose of the Kingdom. " - You describe it like an action movie. It's like it's you against the church, you against the griping, complaining, idolatrous congregation. That's very sad. Being a Christian leader is about being a servant - not an action hero.

"EVEN IF I step on my own toes in the process." - so there is an old saying, "remove the plank...". It's been my experience that those who complain loudest about a particular sin are the ones who struggle with it the most.

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on December 9, 2010 at 3:26pm

"I think leaders should try to cause some change, but without strife. And to be sure, it's not uncommon to be completely blocked. At that point, you either accept it or move on."
Just like Paul? Oh no wait, people hated him. It got him killed. You cannot evoke change without some people kicking and screaming and crying. I have never seen a leader do it. Ever. Make change, you will have strife. Not even the writers of Holy Scripture were immune from this truth.

"I know many church leaders that believe that this is precisely why the church is dying off." - is it dying off? "
Only 40% of Americans attend church. The Church in China sees more growth than the church in America. Voice of the Myrters predicts that within a short span (I think they generally say less than 30 years) Christianity will be outlawed in favor of the Muslim faith. They point to one simple factor: our failure to evangelize.

"How many leaders do you know that think this way? Have they written any articles that I can read? This is a good subject to explore!"
I can't cite articles. Sorry. Most Christian media is worthless junk anyway. If I see something interesting, I'll point it out to you.

"The guitar solo may be trivial. But the guitar solo isn't the point. The people crying for what they want instead of being happy with what God gave them. That is the point." - I thought the guitar solo was the point of this discussion - in fact, I'm sure it was. Your church experience sounds rather unpleasant. I'm imagining Israel complaining in the desert. If you're tired of it, you should move on, you will only make matters worse if you stay."
The guitar solo is never the point. Excellence in our worship offering is the point.


""Being a Christian leader isn't about staying back in the safety and comfort zones. It means taking risks, up to and including our own lives, the lives of our spouses, the lives of our children, and the lives of our friends for the purpose of the Kingdom. " - You describe it like an action movie. It's like it's you against the church, you against the griping, complaining, idolatrous congregation. That's very sad. Being a Christian leader is about being a servant - not an action hero."
So Paul wasn't a servant of the people then? Jesus wasn't a servant of the people? Moses didn't serve the people?

Your dramatizing my arguments a bit. We are supposed to serve the people not by giving them what they want, but by giving them what they need. If somebody wants to belly ache about an aspect of a church's worship offering that isn't sinful, they need to be corrected. Holy Scripture commands us to do that. However, this isn't what we do. We bend to those people and squash the worship offering that many Christians long to give to God.

""EVEN IF I step on my own toes in the process." - so there is an old saying, "remove the plank...". It's been my experience that those who complain loudest about a particular sin are the ones who struggle with it the most."
Welcome to the post-modern world, I suppose. There is a lot more out there than your experience. We still have to hold each other accountable. We still have to correct and rebuke. We can't sit idly by because "I might be doing it too." We need boldness and people who are willing to actually stand up for the truth and not let poisonous people stop it for their own gain, which is what we tend to do.

Permalink Reply by Stevo on December 9, 2010 at 10:03pm

Just like Paul? Oh no wait, people hated him. It got him killed. - You mean Paul the Apostle/martyr? I'm pretty sure you're trying to change the subject. We're talking about leading church members. In the US and UK, we don't seem to face death by church members for confronting people. In fact, neither did Paul. Not quite the action hero thing you described.

"I can't cite articles." - You didn't really have to tell me that, I knew it already. Forget names, how many? What denomination/institution? Perhaps you were being parabolic.

"We still have to correct and rebuke." - I know, that's how you see the world. It seems so draconian the way you describe it. Correct in...?

"They point to one simple factor: our failure to evangelize." - Wait, you said the church is dying because church leaders get fed up and move on. Now you're saying it's a failure to evangelize. Maybe if more church leaders moved on there would be more evangelization and the church wouldn't be dying! So which VOM article are you referring to?

"The guitar solo is never the point. Excellence...is the point." - But that is precisely what the original poster was asking. Wrong question to ask? Excellence is implied.

"Moses didn't serve the people?" - Yes, when didn't I say that? Again, whenever you mention the people, you say they are belly aching, griping and complaining idolaters. When Moses finally snapped and called his people names, he was forced to step down. Leaders have to keep a cool head and maintain compassion. You sound like you're pretty fed up with your people since every time you mention them, they're against you. I wonder if they know how you feel?

If somebody wants to belly ache about an aspect of a church's worship offering that isn't sinful, they need to be corrected. " - This is exactly what I'm talking about. People request things for many legitimate reasons other than belly aching or sin. We're not restricted to changing only sinful things. If all they ever do is belly ache at you, either they or you should move on.

"We can't sit idly by because "I might be doing it too." We need boldness and people who are willing to actually stand up for the truth" - I think it was Jimmy Swaggart who took a bold stand and yet was found doing the same things he was fighting against. Unfortunately, the whole church took a black eye for that one. Again, remove the plank out of your own eye first...

Welcome to the post-modern world, I suppose. There is a lot more out there than your experience. - Yes, there is yours and it's hurting me inside. I ache for your congregation!

Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on December 12, 2010 at 5:16pm

@Steveo:

 

I'm sorry, I don't know how to explain things any better to you.  Perhaps one day God will open your eyes as he has many others and show you the crisis that the Church is in.  I wish that I knew of a more academic way to approach these things that I'm writing about, I don't.  

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