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Singing or ministering???
When leading a congregtion into a place of real worship, are you allowed to show off your waving and riffing skills as an artist or are you to humble minister to people by speaking biblical words as well as singing your songs? Genuie responses are required as it will bless and change as many worship leaders that you can imagine.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ta'fxkz on -
read 2 Samuel vs 23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
which is quite fair to say was biblically to say God disapproved of her position, of course you could say that David was responsible for her not having a child but the bible does not say so
The point is David supposedly lost himself in his public act of worship in ways that i am sure many church leaders would be uncomfortable but clearly God saw it differently
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on -
Ah, I was still curios, did David dance naked? If he did, she was right in what she said. If he wasn't, then she was over-reacting by calling him naked and vulgar. Either way, it seems that she despised David when she realized that he was all about God and not just a rich and powerful King.
Hey, here's a thought - could it be because of Saul? I Sam 13:14 "But now your kingdom shall not continue." I'm not sure there - would a son to Michal via David mean a continuation of Saul's kingdom in some way? The placement of that phrase is almost as if to say - "and by the way, she was childless because of what you just read." But then you realize, it's the end of the story for Michal - I don't see her mentioned later except in the Chronicles summary of this event. It seems that she dove into bitterness toward David.
But consider this - there is a time when a person is showing off and it's wrong. Don't you think? I get why David went crazy for the Lord, but I guarantee that everyone who goes "crazy for the Lord" is not legitimate, yes?
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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on -
"So if the congregation comes to me and says, 'he really overdid it up there today, don't you talk to your team?'"
No. It isn't our responsibility to make people happy. In fact, doing so is against God's word (Gal 1:10).
It is our responsibility to give everything we have to God in our worship offering. The performer's heart is between them and God first, you second. Sure, you can ask, and if you really know them well, you can even tell them to check their motive. But just because the congregation offers critique, doesn't mean that you have to do anything about it. Some people in our congregation will, if allowed, squash our worship offering to God. These people don't need appeasement, they need love and careful rebuke.
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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I wasn't thinking of appeasement. I think somewhere I mentioned knowing your team and your congregation.
"just because the congregation offers critique, doesn't mean that you have to do anything about it." - that's kind of tricky, right? While Mr. Hot-Dog's worship is between Him and God, it's also not. It's a corporate setting and what we do up there has to be acceptable within our respective fellowships - we're there to serve, not push our own point of view. We do offer new things, but ultimately they have to accept them. If we don't like that, we can go elsewhere.
If they feel that playing a guitar solo is out of line, that's their preference. I feel that I'm a servant to them with little to no authority. My elders have the final call on things and if the congregation doesn't like Mr. Solo doing his thing, and they tell me to make him stop I feel obligated to submit to my spiritual authorities - even if I disagree. Eh?
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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on
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It can be a tough call. We are supposed to serve, but in the realm of truth. Congregations taint their worship offering with personal preference. This leads to idolatry and squelching of the offering that others (and by proxy, a given church) is capable to give.
Sure, we want people to be happy - but in the end, we aren't accountable to them. If God gives us something or someone to use, and we don't use it or them because it isn't the preference of a few in the congregation (or even the majority) then we have crossed a very dangerous line.
In fact, I would go so far to say that the Church is so concerned with appealing to its congregations that it has rejected God's desire for us. Leaders allow our worship offering to be maimed and less than what it could be. We are paying a heavy price for this, the price will get heavier and generations to come will reap the consequences of our actions beyond what we can imagine.
If God gives it to you - you are obligated to use it for His glory. So be bold and do that, and stop never concern yourself with what the congregation thinks because, in the end, their opinions have no weight in God's own plans.
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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on
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We all have our preferences, but worshiping God isn't about preferences. It is about giving respect and reverence to God. The only way we can worship with one voice is to set aside our own preferences for a few minutes and unite to give to God whatever he has inspired the leadership of that church to give that week.
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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Yes, if God gives it to you, you are obligated to use it, but it doesn't have to be used in a specific way in a specific style at a specific time and maybe not in the current congregation where you reside. That's the only way I can think to resolve that dilemma.
You can say "never concern your self with what the congregation thinks" all you want, but its just not practical. I mean, it could become a divisive issue or cause many to flee. I'm pretty sure that's not what the Lord would have - me soloing at the cost of people leaving and missing out on the other ministries in the fellowship.
It sounds like you're advocating that we be the "popes of worship."
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Permalink Reply by Greg Moore on -
Many of the great stories of the Bible, and of secular history, feature a hero who stood true to a vision of some sort in spite of opposition, ridicule and desertion. Jesus, in that sense, practically drove the crowd away with his "eat my flesh, drink my blood" provocation in John, chapter 6.
It is easy to imagine ourselves being such a noble hero; but we ought to be really sure that the vision is truly God's for us and for the people. If one's internal motive is to drive away those folks you don't like, and attract those who think like you do, then you will end up with a very nice church full of very nice clones.
Why on earth should a person not concern himself with what the congregation thinks? To concern yourself with what others think is called compassion, a major component of the character of Jesus Christ.
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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Well, and I hate to say it here, but we're only the song leaders. Is it worth causing a split and perhaps our job just because we want to forge new ground and let junior Les play his solo like Jerry Lee Lewis? That really doesn't qualify as a heroic type of act to me. And with the many congregations we have out there in this great world, you can take your practice somewhere else if you think things are too stodgy where you are today.
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Permalink Reply by Greg Moore on
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That's precisely why it's worthwhile to concern ourselves with what others think. Every pastor I've ever worked with/for was vitally concerned with what the people are thinking and doing (as a shepherd does).
Actually, Stevo, I'm not sure who you are replying to (the dotted line came up under my response). I hope you were picking up my sarcasm~(:<) People who envision themselves as heroes generally end up as the salami.
But as for the stodgy issue, when you're fat, bald and 63, you often have to prove that you're NOT stodgy. In this era of adulation of everything fast and furious, willingness to play like Jerry Lee Lewis can keep a person on the payroll.
Music preference is never a reason to cause a split. Sometimes a church splits itself voluntarily (citing "irreconcilable differences") into traditional and contemporary services. My wife and I have just begun as music ministers in a beautiful church that chose to do this, with a full half-hour fellowship time for both groups between the services (one real blessing is that virtually the entire worship team serves in the traditional choir as well).
I've gotten hints of some of the wrestling required to get them to this point. A lot of it involves a pastor and other leaders who had a passionate love for their people and didn't want to see one lost.
The major part of Paul's ministry was to see that while he was "forging new ground", he was to preach reconciliation of all people to Christ. Ministry to the Gentiles is only singled out because the Gentiles hadn't been ministered to. Now they were to be fully equal with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
Acts 10 and Acts 15 and Romans and Ephesians reconciliation to each other, the widening of horizons, the removal of the blinders, the abandonment of the pernicious practice of viewing New Testament doctrine as law; the willingness to "eat what is put before you" without hypocrisy or guilt, serves as a witness to the fact that Christ died for everyone. -
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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on
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"Well, and I hate to say it here, but we're only the song leaders."
Very true. But we aren't only leading songs. We are leading people in worship. Allow worship to be tainted and the consequences are vast.
"Is it worth causing a split and perhaps our job"
If your church is capable of splitting because of differences over music, then you deserve to lose your job as you didn't do it very well.
If Church leaders were more willing to take real risks and lead their congregations in worship that wasn't tainted with the will of the people, and instead focused on giving God the reverence and respect he asks using the things that he gave, then the Church wouldn't be on its deathbed and Christians wouldn't be at risk of losing their right to worship as they do (at least in America).
It isn't just our music offering that is tainted with idolatry and "the will of the people" it is our worship offering in every sense that is tainted. And it is the leadership's fault for allowing this. Today's Churches are run (mostly) by bad kings. -
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Permalink Reply by Cory Zipperle on
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"Every pastor I've ever worked with/for was vitally concerned with what the people are thinking and doing (as a shepherd does)."
It is OK to be concerned with what the people are thinking and doing. it is when we start to cater to them to keep them happy that we run astray from God's call for what we are to do with our congregations. -
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