Monitor Situation

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Stevo on August 23, 2010 at 2:56pm

I think it is. I used to play one and it could really cut through the mix - the presence knob is a great feature for that. It also has a drive and a drive+ channel that you can switch in and out via footswitch to get low volume, preamp overdrive.

What guitar is he playing? What tone is he after? The Hot Rod might not be the amp for him...

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Permalink Reply by Toni on August 23, 2010 at 6:01pm

You do realise that the HRD is a £700 amp, don't you Eric?

;-)

But if you want to go down that particular route there are some less expensive models available locally that could be suggested.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on August 23, 2010 at 6:27pm

It's available used all day long for $400 or less. Not sure how the used market shapes up in the UK...

Eric, are you in the UK?

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Permalink Reply by Toni on August 23, 2010 at 9:04pm

You're correct that buying a used example would be cheaper. Most of the time it's $=£, although sometimes it's actually worse, others it's better. Used they're typically £350 to £450 going by completed ebay listings. With some digging they can be found at around £600 street price.

Now this is just my opinion, but at 40 watts I'd suggest this is still too big to obtain the correct balance of good tone at reasonable volume. Yes, it will punch through fine, but it won't be working hard enough until it's too loud on stage.

I'd be inclined to put an upper limit of around 20W on a valve amp, mostly so that it can be turned up enough to become responsive, but quiet enough so that it doesn't overwhelm the PA and the rest of the band. depending on budget I'd look at things like:

Marshall Class 5 (£300)
AC15 classic (greenback model - £450)
Vox AC4 TV (10" speaker version - £190)
VHT classic 18 (£450)
VHT special 6 half stack (£160 from Thomann.de)
Jet City amps 20W combo (£350)
Jet city Picovalve half stack (£277 as a bundle from Thomann.de)
Blackstar HT-5 half stack (£320) or full stack (£360) (great DI output on these)
Valvepower 18W (£350 http://www.valvepower.co.uk/18w_amp.htm - will need a cab too)
All prices from google shopping except as noted.

There's a lot more, but reading lists of amps out isn't exciting. All these can deliver good to great tone at more sensible volumes. As a valve purist I'd choose the Valvepower 18 because it really will deliver authentic boutique tone, but the Blackstar and Marshall amps both deserve a good hard look. I think you might be surprised at how loud a 5W valve amp can be, although it's not enough to stay clean and keep up with a drummer.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on August 23, 2010 at 9:38pm

It's not too big at all. This amp is designed to be played at low volume and still sound good. It also has a preamp-based overdrive that works well at lower volumes. Again, this implies that you want clean headroom. It will not sound like any Marshall...

Remember - a 40 watt amp is only marginally louder than a 10 watt amp. For reference, a 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 10 watt amp. But I've played these little 4 and 5 watt jobs and they have no clean headroom to speak of. The overdrive is pretty cool, but it just isn't like a 10 or 50 watt amp because they aren't loud enough to interact with the cabinet. So if clean headroom is one of the things you're after, you'll never get it with one of these.

I agree on the AC15, very nice for this situation. About the same loudness as the Hot Rod Deluxe. But keep in mind too - 6L6/6V6 vs. EL84. I don't cherish EL84s for their warm clean tone. They have more of a raspy chime. It all depends on what you're after for tone. The 6L6 will give you a great creamy warm clean tone unlike any other.

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Permalink Reply by Stevo on August 24, 2010 at 2:06am

The difference between 5 watts and 15 is not much, but the clean headroom is linear, so I find most of those little 5 watt jobbies I've played have zero clean headroom. Yet my Brown Deluxe clone, when set up for 11 Watts, is ear splitting. I only turn it up to 2 max when I use it in church. No chance I'm going to overdrive that puppy in church.

If you're in the UK, you're close to some of my favorite amp companies! Vox Marshall and Orange all have distinct tone curves, so if that's what you're after, you're near the source. But I do find that Fender tones are great for worship.

Permalink Reply by Toni on August 24, 2010 at 7:23pm

Hmmm, we're getting slightly OT here, but hopefully it'll be helpful.

The tone of an amp depends more upon preamp topology and speaker design than the output valves, and although they can have an effect, unless the thing is running flat out and producing power valve distortion (not happening here, and some can't do it anyway) then they are a minor factor. So although I'd agree that Vox style EL84 amps have that raspy chime (sometimes) Marshall/WEM style PP EL84 amps tend toward smoother, fatter tones, especially with the right speakers. Likewise 6L6 amps can be warm if tweaked right, but as some Fender's prove, can also be glassy, stingingly bright and mid-scooped.

My reason for suggesting a smaller amp is so that it can be pushed *enough* to be responsive in a room with 100 people without killing half the front row like an AC30 would (been there, done that, still have to hide the bodies in the freezer). ;-) I think you're thinking in terms of US style audiences and church sizes here, and what would be a perfectly acceptable volume level in a US church of 300 would be hugely loud in a UK church of 150.

The biggest difference between a 5-6W and a 15-20W amp (either SE or PP) is that the 15W amp can produce enough bass to flap trousers a little, while the 5W amp can't. But in *this scenario* that doesn't matter, because the amp is going through FOH, and the tone can be EQ'd to make up for that. However a 15W valve amp IS a good compromise, because that's loud enough to hang with a drummer and stay pretty clean.

A quick word on speakers - as one who fiddles with them. The right speaker will make a good amp glorious, but the wrong one will make a great amp weak, abrasive, thin or muddy. If you're splurging on a valve amp it *may* be worth considering a speaker swap too, since very often speaker choice is dictated by economy. That Vox AC15 has a Greenback which is a great speaker, but most amps in this price range will be compromised more or less, and would benefit from better speakers. Efficiency varies a lot too, and theoretically a 5W amp with a 103 dB sensitivity speaker (like an eminence Redfang) will be capable of about the same volume as a 50W amp through a 93 dB speaker (like a Jensen Mod12-50) all things being equal. And the real-life effect is as dramatic as that sometimes too.

Welcome to the world of toneshopping. :-)

Permalink Reply by Stevo on August 24, 2010 at 9:24pm

I don't know, I think the difference between EL84 and all of the octals is pretty significant. I personally feel that EL84's have trouble cutting through unless you run them in class A. But you are right, the preamp does a lot of the tone shaping.

I think we can settle on 15 watts as a perfect number. However, I still have to emphasize that the Hot Rods are excellent at lower volumes. I used one in church for a long time and sometimes wish I never had gotten rid of it. It was never too loud and the tone was superb. It really comes down to playing it and what you like.

Toni - Speaking of the Vox AC15, what do you think of the one that comes with the blue speaker? I've played one and think it's quite a bit nicer than the standard AC15.

Permalink Reply by Toni on August 25, 2010 at 7:26am

Hey Stevo - the Blue is probably THE classic guitar speaker, and there's very little to come close (including the gold) but it produces exactly the tone you described as EL84, though in a very sweet and smooth way. The AC15 fitted with the Blue will be lovely, but it's important to remember that it's not an AC30 with half the power, but has a more conventional tone. As a compromise between cost and tone the Greenback model is very good, because a GB sounds closer to a Blue than pretty much any other Celestion speaker (I've tried both side by side in identical cabs, changing with a selector switch). The one GB weakness is that the 25W version is harsh compared to the Blue.

As for EL84s not cutting, I'd say that a lot of amp manufacturers try to emphasise the chime that the public has been taught to expect, at the expense of mids. That's why I suggested the Marshall/WEM amps as an alternative.

Permalink Reply by Stevo on August 25, 2010 at 12:46pm

But a Marshall would be the last amp I would look to for mids emphasis. Not that it's bad to have your mids scooped, but in a full spectrum situation like worship, scooped mids will hurt you. And Fender is the first place I would look for emphasized mids....

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