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Monitor Situation
Our worship services are in a room that is approximately 40 ft x 50 ft. Currently we have a situation where 2 guitarists are sharing 1 monitor that is pointing between the two and so neither is getting very much from it. If we put it to a level that they are comfortable with, we can pretty much turn the FOH speakers off and there is not a noticeable change in volume. When we put it down to a desirable level to not overpower the main mix, it is too quiet for them (that's not just them saying so - I agree it is too soft for them).
Here are my thoughts on this:
1. Of course, in-ear is best...but price is certainly a daunting factor.
2. If we add another monitor so they each can have their own, would that help? It seems a little counter-intuitive, but I would think we'd be able to keep the volumes lower.
3. Has anyone tried wired in-ear monitors, and what do you think of them?
4. Would wall treatment be helpful at all in that size room?
By the way, the room is rented and we may be moving soon.
Any other thoughts on solving this problem is appreciated.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on -
That could work, but I still think your amp might end up beaming some areas stronger than others.
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Permalink Reply by Toni on -
Let's be pragmatic about this: you've got a small room and are using a PA system designed for for somewhere much larger. Using the stage monitor at a reasonable volume makes the main PA redundant, so just use the main PA for additional sound reinforcement as required and run off the stage mix. Don't forget that monitors are just another PA system, and can still be controlled.
It's unconventional, and will make 'sound engineers' throw their hands up in horror: partly because it breaks the 'rules' and partly because they aren't dominating and controlling how the people on stage hear themselves.
You'll probably get a gradation of sound pressure front to back of the room: that's bad in that volume levels will not be even, but good because people who don't like it quite so loud can find quieter spots. From the sound of things when they have the monitor at the desired volume then it's not too loud in the room, and the only issue really is that you can't run them through the mains. And if you move soon there's a good chance that things will be different and you'll have to re-balance the system again.
FWIW I've been in a very similar situation (though in a much larger room, but with fewer people) where I've run the monitors as the main sound source, just helping where required with the mains. It works well, and keeps both the band and congregation happy.
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Permalink Reply by Gary Eaker on -
This is actually a great suggestion. I've seen this work, too. Depending on the shape of the room, it can cause dead spots, and when the speaker gets up, you have to have your sound man make the switch to the main PAs, but it is a good solution for smaller rooms.
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Permalink Reply by Carl on -
If I were to do this, I'd probably switch the monitors with the mains so that we can get slightly better sound out of them. I am not too fond of having the congregation hear the same mix that the guitarists hear, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
What about this idea - There is no 'stage' or platform, just a regular floor. In the center of the room, up near the 10-12ft ceiling is a 46inch LED TV that we use for lyrics. Suppose we moved the main speakers to be in front of the band, dividing the room into thirds instead of being in the back corners, and got rid of the monitors? It's probably a crazy idea, but I'm just wondering if the speakers are more prominent, we wouldn't need the monitors so much for the musicians? I'm not sure I like it, but it's just a thought. I guess part of the reason I put them out on the ends was to keep the podium gooseneck mic from causing feedback, but if they are pointing straight out it might be ok.
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Permalink Reply by Toni on
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I'd be inclined to move the mains forward to just in front of the band, separate the guitarists so they don't share a monitor and have the monitors firing across the stage so that the sound isn't bouncing off the back wall and returning to the congregation. Also if the guitarist could use a small amp placed on a chair (if it were a transistor amp then it could lay on it's back on the floor, firing at the ceiling - I've used this with small amps, and it can be very good) he might not need a monitor.
It sounds like you could do with setting aside a worship practice with the full team specifically to try out different PA arrangements.
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Permalink Reply by Samuel Sutter on -
short answer - YES another monitor will probably be closer to the guitarists - and can be kept at a lower volume than just one blaring loud enough for the two of them. I've have this problem before.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Askew on -
Hi Carl,
Here's a thought. Get an amp stand for your El. Guitarist and have him set up the amp angled up in front of him. His overall volume will come down because it's pointed right at him. Keep the monitor where it is, drop the El Gtr from that monitor mix completely. Your Ac Guitarist will be able to get a good mix of everything, be able to hear his guitar at a lower volume, and be able to hear the Electric from the amp. Just have your El Guitarist match up his amp volume close to the monitor mix level so he can hear everything. Good luck, Jeff
www.worshipguitarnow.com
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Permalink Reply by Carl on
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I probably should have also mentioned that the guitarists do sing as well, ( On Thursdays they sing lead and play, on Sundays they just play) so they do need to be able to hear their own voices in their mix somehow.
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Permalink Reply by Allan Midgley on -
The above suggestions have been awesome and it shows that others have had to deal with them before.
My suggestion ....easy ...... go acoustic for awhile and let the church get used to that, then bring in the changes you want to do one at a time. If it works keep it, if it doesn't, change it. If a musician has to stand down for awhile, so the team can work it out, so be it.
I used to play electric bass but I have tinitis in the ears ( industrial deafness) and can not hear the 400 watt church bass amp, so I used a twin 10" low watt amp closer to my shoulder area and then I could hear it cleanly and clearly at lower volumes. Some things are external to what you can do but even a basic sound test at low volumes with each of your team may bring sound surprising answers.
It may not be the monitors but the players hearing that is the problem. Some of the youth listen to their Ipods etc all the time and at volumes too loud, that can do damage to their ears.
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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I'm not getting the 40 x 50 foot room, that seems difficult at best.
- Adding another monitor would absolutely help. you could then focus each monitor closer to each player and reduce the overall on-stage volume.
- Absolutely work on the eq of those monitors to make sure you're increasing your highs and upper mids. Monitors are notorious for being presence biased. You'll hear voice cut through fine, but instruments won't and you have crank up the power. But if you flatten them out and go for a more natural sound, you'll find that they contribute less to the house and sound more intelligible on stage. Higher frequencies are more directional, so they can be increased to your players' satisfaction without it adding to house volume.
- Wall treatment could certainly help reduce reflections.
- Get the electric guitarist a good tube amp and lean it back so that it's nearly pointing up, but next to him. He will hear it very well and it won't contribute to house sound. Then mic it and push that through the house. Next, get him another monitor and put it very close to him so he can hear all the other feeds like keys and voices. I'm finding that an amp, when pointed correctly for the venue, makes the best monitor for electric. I do have to confess - I can't stand the PODs and other modelers. Once you play through a "proper amp", you won't go back.
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Permalink Reply by Toni on
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It will depend very much on the amp - but I've already written you a long reply about that. I'd suspect that until he is able to find a combination of factors that makes it sound good for him without being very loud then you'll always be fighting this.
What kind of style does he play - is he using lots of overdrive and distortion or is it mostly clean? If he's going for the 'Hillsongs jangle' (which is really too much brittle treble, too little warmth and mids) then just point it at his head and have done, because he'll never be happy with a tone that's good for the audience. Your comment about it sounding better through the FOH suggests that he is unable to EQ it properly, as there's no way putting great tone through a PA will make it better.
Out of interest, is it a Line 6 amp that he currently uses?
In an ideal world a guitar amp will be slightly off to one side (so it doesn't swamp the stage) and loud enough that it doesn't need to run through FOH. But that's only applicable where it disperses evenly, sounds good to begin with and the volume is set up working with the soundman to get a good balance.
Eric - while I didn't like your tone to begin with, I appreciate that this is a long and ongoing problem. I would agree that an essential part of being a worship musician is doing what serves the audience/congregation best, and if that's not happening then there's a problem.
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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Well, i'ts not just the tube amp, but how you point it and the materials on your stage. For me, I've found that pointing it almost straight up gives me plenty of volume on stage while allowing the sound techs plenty of headroom to mic it.
It also helps to have an amp with the proper tone to cut through the mix. A Fender Hot Rod Deluxe can do that very well as can most any Fender tweed, silverface or blackface amp. An example of an amp that has trouble cutting through is the original Mesa Lonestar. I also find that solid state amps are poor at this. Also, wattage is not a good indicator of an amp's ability to cut through. My Fender Brown Deluxe is set up for 11 watts right now and is ear splitting loud - much louder than my son's previous 100 watt solid state Marshall.
The key is to give it enough stage volume to be it's own monitor without pushing much sound out to the house space. This gives your sound techs the headroom they need. I find that tilting it nearly straight up is the best solution on my stage. If I stand it up normally, it's jumping off that solid bright floor and creating too much sound. It ends up being unevenly distributed around the room and it's very difficult to mix at that point.
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