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feminizing church

I lead worship in a military town. Obviously we have some manly men in our church. I really would like to do a few songs but simply can't because of their feminization. Like for instance:

Beautiful One-can you see a man calling Jesus beautiful
At the foot of the Cross-Kathryn Scott-"Trade these ashes in for beauty
And wear forgiveness like a crown
Coming to kiss the feet of mercy"
Hungry-"Jesus your all this heart is living for"


I think you get the point. What do you guys think?

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Permalink Reply by Kevin LeVrier on March 12, 2009 at 7:18pm
If the guys would get hung up on "feminine" so-called lyrics, then they're not as manly as they think. Real men love Jesus and are not ashamed of how beautiful He is, how Hungry we should be for Him, or wanting to kiss His feet. I was in the military and am too familiar with the "machoness" of alot of men. But if we start avoiding songs that might feel weird or be offensive to someone's taste, then we have nothing left to sing. Follow God's leading and He WILL take care of their hearts.
Permalink Reply by Kevin Riner on March 12, 2009 at 11:03pm
I DON"T wear pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I try to sprinkle in a song every once in a while but to be honest, my conscience gets to me cause I'm afraid at what they'd say. The pastor likes some of the songs, but with the others I have to keep in mind who I'm leading and meet them where they are at. Maybe eventually, we can get to a place where we can get more intimate.
Permalink Reply by Todd Vaters on March 13, 2009 at 12:13am
How will you know when you get to that place?
Permalink Reply by Kevin Riner on March 15, 2009 at 10:51pm
I'll take the cop out answer and say "You'll just know". ;)
Permalink Reply by Todd Vaters on March 16, 2009 at 2:40pm
Ever thought about asking one or two of them what they think?

"Hey, I'm just curious... what do you think of these kinds of lyrics?"

You might be surprised and maybe get into a cool discussion. You might make them think about it. The more I think about this the more likely it seems to me that this intimacy thing may be one of the reasons God has placed you there. Just a thought.
Permalink Reply by Michael Blue on March 16, 2009 at 4:08pm
It may just be that theses songs are exactly what your congregation needs.
You feel like leading them, but don't feel that you can.
You felt led to ask here.
We (mostly) felt that you were irrationally concerned about them and should lead them.

I'd say go for it and just see what God does.

Personally, military or not; if a man is too "manly" to call God beautiful, maybe he's in the wrong place being in church anyways. God is God and we are but men; military or otherwise.

~M
Permalink Reply by Monique on March 16, 2009 at 4:28pm
I don't think that it is feminizing to speak of the beauty of our Lord. Whether you are a man or a woman you need to be able to recognize the absolute beauty of the One Who saved us from such darkness and sin. We all, after all, are the bride of Christ no matter what our gender is. When we see Him as He is there will not be gender that we speak of. It goes much deeper than what we know here on earth. Men need to come to grips with this fact. It is not feminine to worship Him in this way. It is in fact worshiping Him in Spirit and in truth.The Bible also tells us that we will all lay our crowns at His feet. Be sensitive to His Spirit and jump out there and see what happens. I would be curious to know the outcome. Would you please let me know? I will be praying for you for boldness to do what He would want you to do. Blessings!
Permalink Reply by Elaine on March 16, 2009 at 4:49pm
My pastor & I got into this discussion fairly recently. He didn't like a song that I did - about 'kisses on the mouth'. He said that I needed to keep songs comfortable to both genders. At first, I had to think about it, but you know, he's right. A man doesn't want to sing songs about kissing another man on the mouth. In this day & time, of perversion, that just doesn't cut it with a manly man. As worship leaders, there are so many songs we have to choose from.
Permalink Reply by Michael Blue on March 16, 2009 at 4:57pm
I'm guessing this was David Ruis' "True Love"? Never have I interpreted that retelling of Song of Solomon as man - man mouth kissing (yikes!). I think sometimes our interpretations tell more about US than it does the song or songwriter. We need to remember that we are the Bride of Christ.

I would only caution shying away from Biblical lyrics due to fleshly misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
This in particular is an amazing, moving song that had deep undertones in the Spirit, and is completely Biblical.
To remove this song from an entire congregation because of some disturbing, carnal misunderstanding of the lyrics grieves my soul.

Sorry if this sounds too critical or personal, but I just don't understand that concept.

~M
Permalink Reply by Sabina on March 16, 2009 at 5:16pm
Bearing in mind most songs are written by blokes you'd think it shouldn't be a problem. May I be direct and ask whether you are making this assumption on behalf of the men in your church, or have they actually commented on it? It is a question that has been recently voiced in our church too so I would really appreciate your response.
Permalink Reply by Don Keller on March 16, 2009 at 5:27pm
Okay, I had to join in this discussion. Oddly enough, it was a female member of our worship team that complained about what she called "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. If you research the theological blogosphere, you will find a growing voice of concern over modern worship's tendency to trivialize, or overly humanize the worship experience. However, before you tune out the rest of my comment, let me say that we STILL sing these "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. There is a large contingent in our church that truly and deeply worship God through these songs...so I have had to set aside my own minor sense of discomfort over lyrics like the following from "I Stand In Awe of You":
You are God in heaven And here am I on earth
So I'll let my words be few Jesus, I am so in love with You
The simplest of all love songs I want to bring to You
So I'll let my words be few Jesus, I am so in love with You

Are songs like this indicative of our own shallow understanding of what true intimacy is? Are we trying to interpret intimacy with God via our own finite understanding of physical intimacy with our loved ones? And to me, the biggest question, and ultimately the biggest issue in our English language based western culture is a deep confusion and blurry understanding of the word "love". To many of us, though intellectually comprehending the various shades of meaning for the single word "love", we, in our hearts, hear the Greek "Eros"...or physical love. We are a culture obsessed with the physicality of "love", or Eros. So it is no wonder that men, and women alike, express concern over lyrics that seem to emulate the Top 40 but are focused on Jesus instead of your boyfriend or girlfriend. The Top 40 are focused on physical love, not Agape - true self sacrificing all encompassing love.

So, with that said...what does this mean for you Kevin. Well, I think that you have already had some sound advice through the other posts. The biggest challenge we all face is meeting our congregation where they are, and challenging them to take that next step in worship. If we push to hard we push them away...if we don't push at all we wind up going stale or stagnant. You have to find the balance in your congregation. The best thing you can do is work with your pastor, talk openly about your fears for certain songs. If you are feeling led to sing them, it is more than likely God planting that desire in you.

One final thought, though. For me personnally, and for many in my congregation, the deepest and most intimate worship experiences have not come through singing one of the "Jesus is my boyfriend" type songs, but from singing worship that directly addresses the character, power, majesty and grace of God. Songs like "Revelation Song" from CFNI, straight out of the book of Revelation:
Holy, holy, holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was and is and is to come
With all creation I sing
Praise to the King of Kings
You are my everything
And I will adore You

Well look at that..."And I will adore You"...guess you just can't get away from it. If you love God, you are going to have to sing about it at some point. :-)

BTW - Revelation Song has another one of my pet peaves...King/Everything....but what can I say...the chord progression is awesome and the congregation REALLY worships through this song. The King/Everything is for another post on another day.
Permalink Reply by Todd Vaters on March 17, 2009 at 1:29am
But I would challenge people not to see it as an either/or thing. Sing about his holiness, sing about his power and might, sing about his tenderness and his loving care. It's all good. It's all God. Sometimes we bow in reverence and awe, sometimes we crawl up on his lap. Hey... I think I'll go start a discussion about "God is my daddy" songs. :o)

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