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Can we worship God without the Holy Spirit?
Hi,
A question that has come out of another thread, and got me thinking.............
Thank you.
Lorraine
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael Letus on -
I don't think so. I'll base what I say on King Saul and the times it is mentioned that he prophesied. The first is in 1Sam10:11. This is before he became king. It is mentioned that the Spirit of God came upon him and he prophesied with the prophets. The second time is in 1Sam19:18-24. Here Saul first sends out troops to capture David and the Spirit of God comes on those men, who begin prophesying. Saul sends a couple other groups of men who also prophesy. I imagine that this whole process must have been days and maybe weeks as Saul was not in the immediate area. He then goes himself and as he's travelling the Spirit of God comes on him andhe prophesies while travelling before getting to his destination and disrobing while prophesying in Samuels presence. It appears to me that King Saul was definitely not following or obeying God during his quest to kill David, yet when he encountered the Spirit of God he prophesied.
The other thread you mention used Nebuchadnezzar as an example. Though it doesn't specifically state in Daniel 4 that the Spirit of God came upon him, I think it is implied that he had an encounter with God (we do know that God specifically talked to him through dreams) and glorified God as a result. As it says nothing more about Nebuchadnezzar after this I think it's quite possible that the old king is worshipping the King of Kings now.
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on -
I'm not sure what to say - anyone can glorify God when they suddenly see that God is great, so I would say that no one can see that without the opening of their eyes by the Holy Spirit.
But does that mean they have to have the Spirit when they do? The Samuel passages only prove one thing - that when the Holy Spirit comes on people, they tend to praise God. But it doesn't seem to exclude praising God without the Spirit.
1 Cor 12:3 would seem to be proof:
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
But "Jesus is Lord" seems different from "God is great".
I don't know, I'm out of scripture for this one, gotta do some digging...
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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Yea, I'm glad you brought this up. I've been thinking about it ever since.
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Permalink Reply by Lorraine Doswell on -
Yep, me too. Good points made by Michael relating to scripture. Thank you Michael.
What you have said Stevo, are the same sort of things that have been going around in my head, and the more I think..............
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Permalink Reply by Greg Moore on -
Can we breathe without the Holy Spirit?
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Permalink Reply by Greg Moore on
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My comment a moment ago wasn't meant to dismiss your very important question. It does remind me that we as humans tend to think in terms of "I am doing such-and-such", and "God is involved in such-and-so", when in reality everything we do, think or say is done in relationship to God's Holy Spirit. "Where can I go to get away? Over the horizon? Under the bus?" No, there's nowhere we can flee from the Spirit of God. God's Spirit moving through us makes the invisible God visible - love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, self-control -- all inter-related, and all aspects of true worship. Now, a person might suppose, "I could visit the widows and orphans and keep myself pure [n.b., the operational definition of worship in James] without the Spirit." Well, someone might say that, but could YOU do those things apart from God's Spirit, if truly His Spirit dwells within you? A really high-tech robot could visit a widow, pour her coffee and paint her windowframes, but that would not be worship.
Even using a limited definition of worship (singing songs in a church service), what meaning would it have without the breath of life? In Amos and other O.T. places, and in Jesus' conversation, the actions of religious service are not considered worship by God "intrinsically." If they are performed without the Holy Spirit (i.e., mindlessly or hypocritically), they are anti-worship, something which repels God.
Where we have to be careful on this matter is that humans tend to view the worship-actions of others outside their own group as somehow being less worshipful than their own. We simply cannot see inside each other - we can only sense roughly, saying things like "the Spirit is moving in/on/through that person." We imagine that because people begin to raise their hands and seem to be focusing their whole being on God - we imagine that they are worshiping Him. They may well be! They may also be acting on a cue. There is absolutely no way to tell by merely observing the act.
Fortunately, God does enables us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There was a time (John 4, woman@well) when we concerned ourselves with the activities of worship to the point that true worship was practically lost. This happened with the Hebrew children, and happens in our lives, as individuals and as entire churches as our own relation to the Spirit inspires others, or discourages others.
If you have a few free hours, watch the movie "Bicentennial Man", based on Isaac Asimov's story, and let me know if you think the hero would ever become capable of worshiping God. :)
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Permalink Reply by Stevo on
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Greg,
Can you cite references in Amos? (I might have it read through and through by the time you're able to respond...)
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Permalink Reply by Lorraine Doswell on
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Hi Greg,
Great insight, thank you so much. Your first post ' Can we breathe without the Holy Spirit?' is an essential question, and I didn't think for one minute you were trying to dismiss my original question. The Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead, yet also moves in ways that are so subtle you may never be aware of Him.
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Permalink Reply by Greg Moore on
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It's surprising that only a few have entered this discussion; but perhaps the title scares off folks. They don't want to get into friction between Pentecostals (some of whom lump all others as "not having the Spirit") and non-Pencostals (some of whom maintain strict regulation of the type of evidence permissible for the Spirit's activity), and those who are baffled by the existenced of questions of any kind regarding the presence of the Holy Spirit in worship! So it's easier to click on something safer.
Still, your question provoked my own thought a good deal -- I've been working on a contemporary drama "Galatians", hoping to capture the essence and purpose of an important book that doesn't seem to be read that much. Your discussion came to mind as I was trying to outline Galatians because of Paul's constant reference to the Spirit inb action. I can't make any grand conclusions, but I'll put down some notes about his "Galatians Rant" that might be valuable to you.
Gal. 3:5 - the Spirit, involved in powerful & miraculous works
Gal. 5:22 - the Spirit influences human behavior and attitude (the 'fruit')
Gal. 3:3 - can the flesh possibly perfect what is begun in the Spirit?
Paul is talking about something way bigger than a religious/medical practice. But remember, in his time, among Jews the uncircumcised were considered Ineligible to Worship. But the Holy Spirit makes all eligible who trust in Christ.
Acts 1:8 He interfaces with us powerfully - no mere twinge of the heart, but power to witness Jesus to the world!
See how 1:8 is fulfilled through 2:4ff through v.39 to v.47. We see in Acts 4:8 the Spirit gives bolness to preach. He influences the mind (John 16:7,8, Acts 4:31-33) with the Father's message (John 16:14). He does not regard what we call "dispensations." David spoke through the Spirit (quoting Acts 4:25).
Acts 5:3 brings us to a place where the Spirit's interface is so strong and direct that a lie to Him costs two people their lives! Some point to this (and much of the rest of the chapter, v.11-16) as a train of events belonging to the apostles' era only - haven't seen too many folks lyin' and dyin' today, though lying does kill our spirit insidiously and surely. But it does tell us in any age that His presence in worship (for Ananias' & Sapphira's gift was ostensibly an act of worship to God) is no laughing matter with the Lord.
You just can't worship God without the Holy Spirit.
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Permalink Reply by Lorraine Doswell on
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Yeah, not many have entered the discussion, but hey, it's the quality that counts, and that post is some super, quality stuff. Thank you Greg.
I realised the title may scare some folks (chickens) but took the chance anyway and am thrilled with what's been said so far.
I have not commented much myself on this discussion (makes a change) as I am much more interested in what others have to say, who are far, far better equipped than me.
God Bless. Lorraine
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Permalink Reply by Gerald (Jerry) Jackson on -
In my humble opinion the answer would be "no" I don't know the address off the top of my head but I reference when Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well "...there is coming a time when those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and truth..." That to me means we must be born of the Spirit "born again" I don't understand how that can be done without the Spirit honestly.
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